- by Dame Toni
The high point of my week is usually an argument.
I hate real life conflict, but the two places I love to see it are in my manuscripts and at my critique session. When my critique partners and I passionately disagree, it’s usually a sign that at least one of our current works in progress is about to get a whole lot better.
There are three of us, and it’s a synchronicitous (Yes, I just made that word up. I get to. I’m a writer) relationship. I cannot overstate how much having these partners has done for the quality of my work. Just ask Dame Agent!
C is a master plotter. I suspect she was Genghis Khan in a previous life. Or that Chinese dude who wrote The Art of War. She can see the whole picture and how all the pieces fit together. She’s the “what if” member of our group–the one who conjures outrageous scenarios and plot twists out of thin air and hands them to us, just as we need to fill a gap. If my pacing is off, or I’m missing opportunities to ramp up the tension, C will let me know.
O is the wordsmith. The most literary of the group, her work is sometimes almost poetry. She’s the one that will nail you if your language isn’t ringing true. She also gets all that stuff about themes and symbolism. I’m not sure my last book would even have themes and symbolism if it wasn’t for O. She’s the only member of the group who’s worth a damn at proofreading, a skill that we do not value lightly.
I’m the character gal. I can get you so deep into someone’s head that you’ll expect to see them looking back at you from the mirror. I’m the one who lets my partners know if I am buying into their characters’ motivations if their voices are distinct, and their emotions authentic. I’ll also tell them if I’m feeling a sudden urge to slap their protagonist.
The differences that make us compatible are only part of our successful formula. The other is that we have actual, written rules.
If you’re a writer, and looking to either form a critique group or make your existing group stronger, I highly recommend you do the same thing. As you craft your rules, here are a few basic principles you might want to consider:
- Have a mission statement. What is the purpose of the group? It may seem self-evident, but different people may have very different ideas about what they want from the group.
- Have “submission guidelines.” If you were submitting your work to an editor or agent, it would be your best work, carefully proofread and professionally formatted. Your critique partners deserve the same consideration.
- Have a “one time only” rule. Include something about not resubmitting the same chapter more than once. This will help prevent “first three chapter syndrome.” (You know who you are!)
- Have a size limit. Our group of three works very well for us, but I’ve worked successfully with groups as big as five. After that, it gets too difficult to get through everyone else’s work and give it your best attention.
- Have a probation period for new members. This may be the most important item on the list. I’ve received a number of emails from people asking for advice on how to “fire” a bad critique partner. Believe me, it’s a lot easier to avoid having one in the first place!
And, once you have your written critique rules, don’t take them too seriously. In the words of Captain Jack Sparrow, “They’re really just guidelines.”
Enjoy the process!
Also, If you’d like a copy of the actual rules that my group uses, email me at the link provided (hint–you can get there through my website) and I’ll send them to you.
Now, on to the important part–PRIZES! To win a signed copy of my last release, Angel of Mercy, leave a comment and tell me the number one thing you would like to get from a critique group. (If you’re not a writer, you can talk about any kind of collaborative group, from a carpool to a design team at your office).
And, don’t forget to check out the trailer for the next book in the Mercy Series (that’s a better book because of my critique group), Cry Mercy.
- Dame Toni
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Tags: Angel of Mercy, Contest, critique group, Cry Mercy, Toni Andrews, writing
Great advice, Toni. No matter how happy we might be with our own work, it’s never wrong to get someone else’s take on something so close to us.
Great article. I think the most important thing a critique group provides is perspective. Having readers keeps me from falling too in love with myself and my own words. Right now I have two people who read my work before it goes out, but only one of them is an active fiction writer. I wish I had more who were at a professional standard. The other is an English professor and poet, so she at least can help me with murderous commas and cliches.
Great post – it’s very interesting to read about other people’s attitudes to critique groups, especially as I have yet to really find one for myself. I think when I do manage to find one that works for me, a large part of that will be feeling that we’re equal partners in it. Obviously people’s strengths will be different, but I want to feel that I’m contributing as much as I’m getting back from the group.
Great blog! Like you I value having partners who each offer a specialty. My critique groups have been invaluable in helping me with one of my worst sins, overwriting. I also love it when they call me on plot implausibilities and pacing weaknesses. Of course, I love it more when they suggest what I need to do about these little faux pas. What would we do without these people? I sure don’t care to find out.
Michelle
Good advice. Getting other people’s opinions on your work is always good. Even if their adcice isn’t something we want to hear. I don’t have a critique group personally. Plus I can never seem to finish a draft of my “soon to be noves” (my wishful thinking!) finished to a way that I like it, so I can’t necessarily let others read it. Plus as I really look at them, they are all really short. Some authors tell me they aim for 70,000 words others more! What is the average??
I actually look for a “talking partner” – someone I can bounce ideas off of to get feedback. (I’m one of those “knowledge at the point of utterance” people.)
You know, I have trust issues with something like a critique group. I used to be a songwriter in Nashville, which was a bit cutthroat, and still think someone stole one of my songs. So my creative juices are often kept to myself. Bad idea, I’m sure. I do wish that I knew an EDITOR who wouldn’t charge me out the yin yang to edit a book.
Your group sounds great. I can see the whole picture but the wordsmith would be a priceless addition for me. Just the group itself is helpful.
Theresa N
weceno(at)yahoo(dot)com
I love the idea of having rules, particularly because yours are minimal and sensible vs. “And all submissions must be in X font” or whatever. (And yes, I know people who are just that nit-picky.) If only we could use these rules in real life. Three of us are helping a friend’s husband plan her surprise 50th birthday party, and even for four people who get along, we keep getting hung up on the most minor points and taking way too long to do anything.
I agree with you whole heartly. I am a writer wannabe but I do have a group that meets weekly. If everyone in the group was exactly the same, it probably would not even get off the ground. You need a diverse group to keep it interesting. It keeps it going and you learn as much as you give.
I do not belong to a crit group (yet) but I think that, based on a recent experience I had discussing my work with another author, one thing that’s tremendously helpful is talking from the premise to the bare bones outline. From there, I can take it and run myself. Great topic!
My problem is finding a writing/critique group that I would enjoy being involved in. I have four kids under 4, so I can’t go out to a group, and while I love the power of the ‘net to bring people together, I agree with Carmen (reply #7) that trust would be a big issue in being in an online group. I know other writers would be in the same boat, but it doesn’t make me more likely to trust them. I don’t want anyone else stealing my ideas – who would? I notice there are a lot of sites which offer critiquing services, but they usually charge a fortune, which is rather pointless when I can just bounce things of my unemployed friends. Groups may work for some, but unless I can find a free online group that I would trust with my life, I think I’ll stick with what I have in place.
Carmen (#7), you should know that Leslie Wainger (#9) is a legendary editor (with NYT bestsellers to her credit) who now has her own book doctor business. Her rates are well below the ying yang level!
http://www.lesliewainger-bookdoctor.com/
On the other hand, an AQUIRING EDITOR (one who says they are going to publish your book) should never charge a fee. If they do, it’s likely a scam!
Number one thing I enjoy getting from a critique group is when the wording isn’t as tight as it could be and there are a lot of unneccesary words.
I am not really a writer, but I do journal our trips so the family can keep up with us on our travels – AND I don’t have to tell the same stories 25 times! I ejnoy it when someone comments on something I said. A specific comment, I mean, not just a “Sounds like you are having fun” comment. It shows that they really read what I wrote, not just looked at the pictures. Along that line Sun Tzu wrote The Art of War! :>)
Thank you for the good advice. I’m a new writer and am nervous about getting into a critique group. It’s always good to know what I may be able to expect.
Hmm, I don’t write, so I guess this would apply to maybe a mentor. The thing I’d most like to get would be not only a critique of myself but some CLEAR advice about fixing the problem. Too often I get really vague replies to questions about what could I be doing better. Argh.
I tend to do individual trades with crit partners, rather than having an actual formal group. The number one thing I need them for? Letting me know when I left something out. (It seemed obvious to me; why does it need to be spelled out?)
the best thing I get is clarification. i am a journalist so I know what my sources said and what their quotes mean but sometimes that gets lost in the writing. when it is read by my editors they have no background so they can tell me if the point comes across or not. thanks!
The way you phrased the question has me stumped. I can wax poetic on what a critique group should be and how it should function, but what I actually want OUT of it? Um. Hm.
Obviously, I want my partners to help grow me into a better writer. But, well, how does that happen? I don’t know. Challenging me and my limits would be a start. Helping me with the big picture.
I’m in an online group that helps with the line-editing aspect but I don’t need it so much now. I’m in another group that is great for support and we’re starting to show each other work, and I think it may naturally develop into an honest crit group as we seem to be around the same level. That would be fun.
I’m not a writer, but am active in organizations – now working on a convention committee. I think it’s necessary to listen to everyone’s ideas, vote, and abide by majority vote. You should never let another member feel unimportant. The closer knit the group becomes, the more successful your project will be.
I am finally getting to be *in* a critique group, for the first time since workshopping in college. I’m so excited! We set up our rules slightly differently, since we all know each other through various friends first as peers and newly as writers. I’m the cat-herder, responsible for giving out the deadlines and nagging people if they don’t meet them. V’s our web guy, who put together a place for us to store our stuff online. N’s the one with the dream who inspired us all to put the gears in motion, and M’s the man with the plan who actually got us off our butts to organize this thing. So that’s all on the organizing side. We have our first meeting on the 7th, and we’ll see how it goes! There are six writers total, plus an editor, but we’re not all submitting for every session. We’re also sending out our stories in print, so that it doesn’t have the feel of online critiquing (which apparently none of us are very good at).
Because we’re still starting, there’s still room for us to put our guidelines in place–so I’m going to send this link out to the gang and see what we can take from what you’re doing.
Hi Toni, I came over here from your twitter.
I know when I work with a crit circle it’s important for the writer to have questions (we often know what we did wrong, but just not how it fix it.)
I’m not a writer but I think rules are important for any group project. When working together I think time issues have to be dealt with and that its okay to disagree not everyone has to agree on everything little thing. To go with the flow if getting overwhelmed.
Edit: Seven writers and an editor.
As I said, we’re new, and not everyone submitted this time around, so I mis-counted.
Constructive criticism. It’s hard enough to take when someone bashes your work, but if they can’t be bothered to suggest ways to improve it, then what’s the point. Telling me my poster or newsletter design is “cr*p” is not going to help me make it less so. Fortunately, there is only one person on our team who critiques that way, so we all mostly ignore her. But it’s still hard to hear
To have a critique group or even a single critique partner on the same wave-length? Nirvana. I have a great “What if?” guy in my life (my wonderful husband). But I no longer have anyone to read my ms “top to bottom” and give me concrete advice on flow, readability, and all the little shiny buttons that need to be pushed. I did have a CP but she stopped writing due to a variety of life events. A major difference in time zones also put a crimp in the exchange so we’ve drifted apart.
LOL. None of that actually answered your questions, Toni. The number one thing I want from a CG or CP? Honesty. Followed closely by a strong work ethic. It’s great to be friends and I enjoy social hour as much as the next person, but when it’s time to work, it’s time to work.
I need a group that will help me keep my POVs straight, and to question me about my world and my characters. A writer friend of mine was quizing me about why my MC did this, how did he do it, and what were the consequenses.
I need different things from a CP than other times. Sometimes I just need a quick read, no editing. I usually want to know…does this make sense? Is the suspense there? Is she TSTL?
I have one CP that I listen to. A couple of others that give me good suggestions.
I guess what hacks me off is for a CP to ASK for suggestions, or help in identifying problems with the MS or synopsis but then spends all her(his) time “defending” her(his) original wording. Kind of blows us off. Fine, but I always wish I hadn’t spent time combing through the work.
I haven’t written anything for quite a few years, so must go with the group at work. What we really got from each other beside moral support was specific solutions to the problems we brought up or the answer that we were doing everything we could. It isn’t often you find a great group of women to work with, it’s like finding gold!
I’ve been wanting to look into joining a critique group, so I enjoyed reading this post!
As for what I’m looking for in a group, I think I basically want other writers to take a look at my work so I know if I’m on the right track–something that is not always easy to see when I’m the only one judging if it’s ready to be unleashed or not.
I’ve never even thought of a critique group but it makes so much sense! I’m way too attached to my work to view most of it with a critical eye. A critique group would be perfect for me.
I would definitely like a critique partner who can tell me where the story falls short. I know it’s there somewhere, but I can’t for the life of me pinpoint where they are. I could also use an editor-type critiquer. All that would be wonderful.
Maybe I’ll look into these groups…thanks for the post Toni!!
Great post. From groups in general, I want people who see things from a different perspective than I do, so that they can help me see the “what-ifs” that I would have missed on my own.
I haven’t quite went looking to join a critique group, I’m very tight-fisted with my work. It isn’t a trust issue, but a self-doubt thing.
I do have some trusted friends that I bounce ideas off of. Sometimes they don’t bounce back though. I also have another friend who has a good grasp on my voice and vocabulary. He’s helped me so many times to tighten my dialog, and smooth out problem areas.
Great post!!
I’m not a writer but I can talk about someone who keeps me on track.
One of my friends and myself are losing weight together and we keep each other on track. It’s a great system and we love supporting one another. We’re still losing the weight right now and when we are maintaining our weight loss we’ll support each other then too!!
I am not a writer, but I think the benefit of asking anyone their opinions on any matter is the feedback that they will have. Positive or negative feedback at least you have someone elses perspective on it.
This post is SO AWESOME! I am currently trying to scratch together a critique group of sorts, so your guidelines are like a Godsend!!
What I look for in a critique group is perspective. From the middle of the thicket of my own words, I have no objectivity or perspective on what I’ve written, and no matter how far away I get from it, it’s still recognizable as my own work, and I feel incapable of rendering an objective opinion. There. Clear as mud, right?
This is a really great blog site, so active!
I think it’s important in a critique group not to try to change someone’s story. Better it, but not change it.
And the most important thing I would look for is someone who can tell me where the story drags. If I am missing something. Constructive criticism with suggestions that are feasible.
I’m more into a few trusted friends reading my manuscripts rather than a critique group, though I suppose that’s really very close anyway.
The number one thing I like: having a critiquer get so into the story that they start arguing with me about my characters as if they’re mutual friends. It can really help me straighten out character motives and interactions.
Awesome advice, it’s applicable universally. My best friend and I critique each others’ work. She’s grammar and syntax all the time and I’m ideas and plots.
The thing I would I would like in a critique group are having diverse people who like different genre’s so that I could get ideas from the whole spectrum, from fantasy to historical fiction to YA to nonfiction. That would be useful with ideas.
That was an interesting post!
I like getting comments about unbelievable plot developments and world building holes. It’s in those two areas that I have the least confidence in my writing.
Toni – your group sounds perfect – I’m supremely jealous. I’ve been in groups before and they can be either good or bad. The group takes on a life of its own, so your point about a probationary period is well taken. What do I want from a group? I want them to ramp up my fiction, rocket it off like Evel Knievel on a good day. Currently, I use a group of readers whom I trust. Believe me, they don’t adore everthing I write. Perhaps not the best approach, but a firm second place to the critique group. Love your books and your firm grasp of the business. Best, MM
Great advice. I would love to get someone else take of what I am talking about from a critique. Whether they agree or disagree and why.
I think the most important thing to me is honesty, about both the good and bad things. I really need to hear what isn’t working, but I also need to hear what is working.
The number one thing I would like to get from a group is honesty. I want it to be the truth, even if it is brutal. Your group should be honest and supportive in all things.
I’ve had a number of crit groups over the years and altho it’s a lot of work, it’s worth it. It took me a while to appreciate the process, being the insular type. But once you surrender to objectivity (as best you can) your writing can benefit.
Like anything, you have to find the right fit. Someone starting out won’t feel comfortable with professional writers and pros won’t want to waste their time with hobbiests.
I think the trial period is a good thing and no hard feelings whatever happens. It’s difficult to find people to talk to writing about…it’s an obscure experience in many ways. That’s one joy in finding a group or partner.
If you still have feelings or an ego, this is a wonderful purge.
I really enjoyed reading your entire blog. Thank you so much for the advice. It was helpful and informative.
What I would like to have from a critique partner the most is someone who not only understands where I’m coming from, but can see where I’m going. She/he can be a super hero and attempt to be all three of the people in your group (which you are very lucky to have found ^^). I wouldn’t know what I would want help with most, but I sure would like someone who wouldn’t mind telling me I’m wrong and offering up ideas/discussion on how to fix it.
Hmm, I have to finish the first draft before I can go to critiques otherwise I change everything based on what others say and the whole story unravels. With that said, I want responses and not just “this is great” or “I would never have written that” and a total re-write. I want the other participants to participate and respect my work.
I am totally jealous of your group. Someday….
Karen Kincy: I love when that happens too. Hearing my friend, who’s read my novel WIP, start talking about my characters as if they’re real is awesome. Even better is seeing her react to a scene or character exactly how I had intended the reader to.
As for what I would want from a critique group… definitely honesty. If I want someone to tell me that my writing is “great!” without any further explanation, I’ll ask my family to read it.
I also like having someone who is willing and able to get completely lost in the world(s) I create. It’s so much easier to bounce ideas back and forth for how to resolve an issue when the other person really “gets it”.
Having a professional proofreader in the group to catch the mistakes that slip through when I’ve read my story so much that it’s practically memorized would be awesome too.
Great post!
The number one thing I would like to get from a critique group is a better grasp on plotting. I’m literary as hell, a great proofreader, and have created some amazing characters, but sometimes my plotlines lack…intricacy.
I love, love, love my crit partner. We complement (and compliment!) each other very well, and we help pinpoint what could be stronger in one another’s works. I wouldn’t be the writer I am without her!
Really what I want from my group is a sense of where something has gone wrong. What they call the red line. At what point in the manuscript would they stop and walk away and my job is to move that red line further and further down until the red line is someplace next book!
Great blog topic.
Jana
Honesty, positive feedback (don’t just say it’s wrong, ask what did I mean by that?), the give and take of conversation can help a lot. Are critique groups mini thinktanks? Definitely need a supportive group members.
Constructive and honest feedback is what I want in a critique group. As well as knowing that the group is there to support you.
Toni
I love to take photographs.
I have always enjoyed going to old cemetery’s
When I show them to my friends photo’s
I love it when they are truthful and not just everything is Awesome. . To me it’s like going to a art gallery.
Wether it is just to bad there was something in
the background. To damn that is just not right.
LOL Which sometimes they are so correct.
I have to agree with Nixy (#2). Perspective is something I as an individual need. I tend to get quite wrapped up in my view of things and at times I don’t realize that I’m not giving the reader everything they need to see what I am seeing. Having that reader who also understand the writing side is like getting to stand in front of a three-way mirror in a dressing room. Being able to see the views might not always be pleasant but who wants to buy a new pair of jeans that look good in the front and bad in the back? ;D
I’m not a writer, but I do have 2 business partners. One is an engineer, like I am, and the other is the business/finance guy. We come together about once a week or so and discuss what projects we are working on, progress reports and new ideas. Myself and the other engineer (J) get distracted and start ‘geeking’ and it’s all the business guy (M) can do to get us back on track. I am the mechanical, electro-mechanical, programmer if a gun is held to my head, side. J is the programmer, electronics, can possibly point out the alternator in a car, guy. M is the finance, sales, keep A.D.D. engineers on track, guy. Together, we are all set to be a very successful small company. But we need all three of us together to function correctly. If I didn’t have the other two, all my ideas would just be drawings in my notebooks instead of drawings sitting in the patent office.
I always like to begin and end with a positive when doing critique.
Nice article. Sign me up for the drawing!
I think the most important thing about a critique group or group of ANY kind is honesty! Without it things could get really bad.
I am a member of a critique group much like yours. Everyone brings some special tallent to the group. Many times I have learned something new or a new nugget to think over. I want my group tell me what they really think because that is the only thing that makes me better.
“With our powers combined, we are Uber writers” ahhem, had a flash back to the 80′s sorry.
I have kind of an informal crit group. We have been waiting to the finished and revised novel stage before sharing our work out, but it seems to work ok. Were I to be in a more formal critique group I’d want honesty, good editing/critiquing, ie the kind that will help make my story awesome, and, well… honesty. ^^ And really that’s what I want from my current CP’s anyway.
I credit my first sale to my work in critique groups. I’ve been fortunate to have had awesome critique partners. One in particular served as a mentor guiding me to helpful writing (craft)books, contests, and conferences. She also suggested particular authors who demonstrated their mastery of the specific element I was stuggling with at the time — setting, character emotion, etc. Of course, you have to do the work — study and write, write, write.
What am I looking for in a new group? I’d love to have someone on board who, like C, is a master plotter. I love crawling inside characters’ heads and playing with word choice, but plotting is not my strong point. What else do I want? A group that’s supportive and understands professional quality writing well enough to know when to nudge its members to submit, and when to wait.
I’m not a writer – I’m a reader! From any group
to which I belong, I would want to see everyone
cooperating, adhering to schedules, and enjoying
membership in the group.
Pat Cochran
Excellant topic. I have one CP who keeps me on track. We compliment each other and work well together. Don’t know if we’ll consider expanding, but if the right person came along we might!
I’m not a writer but the most important thing for me when working in a group is to get other perspectives–respectfully. If people can’t be respectful, the whole thing pretty much blows up for me.
cool post!
I’m not a writer, but I enjoy getting feedback from a group. And advice.
Boy, it seems like you have great group with each contributing their talent. Getting someone else’s opinion really helps if they will be honest and forthright. Best of luck to each of you and Happy Valentine’s Day!
I do like critique groups, when you are ready and prepared for it. I enjoy the “discussions” very much. Sometimes they are a little emotional, but that just shows how much everyone cares. I like to get out of it what everyone else likes or wants or does see in what is being done. It really helps to make the work all that much more better. Sometimes what you are trying to relay is not what someone else is picking up. It is good to hear others thoughts.
The number one thing I’d like to get from a critique group are members who don’t read out their Greek Chorus-type plays where all the characters swear uncontrollably and continually and there’s no hint of plot or characterisation, but a big hint of mental illnesss in the writer.
Just saying… ;o)
What I want from a critique group is – sandwiches.
No, not the two-slices-of-bread kind. What I mean is, some people are so afraid to hurt your feelings (or worried that you’ll take your revenge when its their turn) that they only tell you positives. Some use their ‘power’ to vent frustrations and give you only negatives.
I’m honest enough to want to know about the negatives, but sensitive enough to need the positives also, hence: each negative layered between two positives, please *g*
Great post! I’m not a writer but I enjoy being in a group where there is honesty and cooperation. Getting perspectives different from your own is wonderful.
Very interesting post! When I’m part of a group, I love getting positive/negative feedback from everyone.
I’m not in a writing group, partly because I wouldn’t know how to find one, but more importantly because I’m still really sensitive about people seeing my writing. I have a good friend who is a writer like me (we do it for fun, we’re not published) and we edit each other’s stories. It would be nice to have more than one person read my stories so I could get more opinions and I could have a backup person to catch the mistakes the first person didn’t see. What I would really want is to know that the person editing my story has training/experience with professional editing.
Having to explain my stories, my character’s motives, my themes to other people actually makes me start to see the flaws (and good things) in my own story. Then it’s great to have the support of other writers right there to help generate ideas and solutions to fix the flaws.
I really enjoyed the post and Thank you so much for the wonderful advice, which I am passing on to a friend of mine. She has a critique partner and it isn’t working as well as she had hoped. She is published now thru ebook and working on her second one. As to me, I am writing my first story and find the rules and suggestions you give here great. Things I didn’t know and things I should look for.
Thank you again and Best Wishes to you!